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THE DAY AFTER KABILA DIED, I TOOK PART IN THIS PROGRAM. SOON AFTER THERE WAR POWER CUT IN THE OFFICE AND SUBSEQUENTLY I LOST MY CONTRACT.
UNE INTERVENTION D’ANTOINE ROGER LOKONGO (photo ci-dessus) A LA BBC UN JOUR APRES L’ASSASSINAT COMBIEN IGNOBLE DE MZEE LAURENT DESIRE KABILA, A LA FIN DE LAQUELLE IL YA EU COUPURE DU COURANT AU BUREAU OU IL TRAVAILLAIS COMME JOURNALISTE, ET PAR CONSEQUENT IL A DU PERDRE SON BOULOT
BBC WORLD SERVICE
Hello, I am Ben Dotse Malo.
Welcome to Talk About Africa, the programme that looks at issues behind the headlines.
The Democratic Republic of Congo has been thrown into fresh turmoil following news of the assassination of President Laurent Kabila. It is believed that Mr Kabila was shot by one of his body guards yesterday afternoon at his residence in Kinshasa.
The question is:
- What does that mean for one of Africa’s richest but most troubled countries?
- What does that mean for the entire Great Lakes Region and for Africa as a whole?
It is just four years ago when Laurent Kabila and his rebels, with the direct support of Rwanda and Uganda marched into the Congolese capital Kinshasa in a final military push that ended the three decades of oppressive and debilitating rule by Mobutu Sese Seko. At Mr Kabila’s inauguration, great hopes where raised for a «Regional Renaissance», economically and politically. But the hopes were soon dashed after Mr Kabila fell out with his main backers Rwanda and Uganda, who then put their put their support behind a group of rebels based in the east of the country. The rebels have been pursuing a military campaign to topple Mr Kabila. That war subsequently brought in the armies of Namibia, Angola and Zimbabwe in support of Mr Laurent Kabila.
A lot more in this discussion about the implications of what is happening in the Congo but there is still confusion whether Mr Kabila is alive or dead.
First to find out, Arnauld Zajtmann our reporter in Kinshasa, he joins us now on a satellite phone from Kinshasa.
Ben Dotse Malo: Arnauld, Is Mr Kabila dead or alive?
Arnauld Zajtman: According to official statements released in Kinshasa this afternoon by the spokesman of the President, Minister for Communications Dominique Sakombi Inongo, Kabila is under treatment abroad, and according to that statement, President Kabila’s son Joseph Kabila is now in charge until President Kabila recovers. That is the official line of the Congolese government at this stage.
Ben Dotse Malo: But unnoficially on the ground, what are you able to find out as whether he is dead or alive?
Arnauld Zajtman: According to different diplomatic sources, Président Kabila is dead. According to eye witnesses within his security, he has been seen by in different villas, and the confusion within his surrounding, there is not really a lot to say for sure that he is dead. But white people in diplomatic circles in Kinshasa believe that President Kabila is dead, and that the government is trying to buy some time.
Ben Dotse Malo: Indeed, we understand the Belgian government, even here the United Kingdom government is also confirming that Mr Kabila is dead. Are the people in Kinshasa, the government, aware of all these other governments who are confirming that Mr Kabila is dead?
Arnauld Zajtman: They want to make sure that all different groups within the government share power in a good way for everybody before they come out with a new team, and apparently, according to diplomats in Kinshasa, there is no doubt that President Kabila is dead and they are trying to get some time in order to make sure that the situation is under control, and that there no vacuum of power.
Ben Dotse Malo: Could you tell us what really happened?
Arnauld Zajtman: On Tuesday afternoon, it was 1pm in Kinshasa, when Président Kabila has an argument with one of his bodyguards and the boduguard killed him. That is the story we have here in Kinshasa. The bodyguard shot three bullets and Président Kabila was then transferred to the hospital.
Ben Dotse Malo: Arnauld, you mentioned that the official Congolese government spokesman said that Mr Kabila has been flown out of the country abroad. Could this country abroad be Zimbabwe, or which country are we talking about?
Arnauld Zajtman: He has not mentioned any country, but some source within army told the BBC that President Kabila has been transferred to Zimbabwe, but again apparently, the idea, in my opinion, in my understanding is to cool everything down in Kinshasa and to make sure that they have control of everything. According to other sources, President Kabila’s body was transferred to Lubumbashi during the night.
Ben Dotse Malo: Arnauld Zajtman in Kinshasa, please just stay with us, as I quickly introduce our other guests in this edition of Talk about Africa. And first of all, Congolese UK based journalist, Antoine Lokongo, and then we have international expert on Congolese affairs, George Block. He is coming from the International Crisis Group and right here with me in the studio, I have our Swahili Service Editor, Tido Mhando, who very recently met and interviewed Mr Kabila just a few weeks ago.
Before we just go on Joseph winter joining us from the Zimbabwe Capital Harare. Joseph, just to get the clearer picture from Harare, what is being said there about Mr Kabila and his reported assassination?
Joseph Winter: Well, I understand that the Defense Minister Morven Mahachi has confirmed that Laurent Kabila died on his way to seek medical treatment in Harare. I have not heard that first hand, but that is the report that I am getting. When I heard the report that he was apparently undergoing medical treatment here, I did phone up the main hospital, the Avenue’s Clinic where I would have thought that he would have gone if that was true and they said they had no knowledge of him whatsoever. I also spoke to two other senior government people, and they both said they had no knowledge that he was currently in Harare seeking medical treatment. So, it seems that the most definite report we have from this end is from the Defense Minister saying that he died on his way to Harare.
Ben Dotse Malo: Antoine Lokongo, what do you know about the situation unfolding in your country?
Antoine Lokongo: There are three versions of the event taking place in my country: the Belgian, French and American one, which says the President is dead, and he was killed by his bodyguard who comes originally from South Kivu. But this morning Afrique N01, a radio-station based in Gabon, said that the President was killed by Mr Kayembe, who is the Vice-Minister of Defense, after Président Kabila sacked him. And now we have the Kinshasa version, as your correspondent has just said that the government has not yet said that President is dead. They say he is grievously wounded and in intensive care. So, I mean, I don’t know which one of these three versions is the right one and it is only time that will tell us.
Ben Dotse Malo: Well, let me just say that a fourth version is that the Zimbabwean Defense Minister says Mr Kabila has been killed and that it was a pure assassination.
Antoine Lokongo: That is absolutely new to me!
Ben Dotse Malo: Are you surprised?
Antoine Lokongo: I am very, very surprised. I mean, I wish to wait for the official version from the government because I am a citizen of Congo and like all the Congolese people, I wait for my government to confirm whether my President is still alive or dead.
Ben Dotse Malo: Well, Mr Kabila, very recently was interviewed by my colleague Tido Mhando. Tido asked him whether he was afraid of being killed.
President Laurent Kabila speaking to Tido in Swahili: Mimi Bwana, Mimi ni mtu nimekua katika matatizo ya kupigani haiki…
Tido Mhando explaining: I am a man who grew up as a fighter for human rights. I knew that I could die at any time. I have since sacrificed my life for that cause. So, come what may! Those who live will bear witness.
Ben Dotse Malo: And Tido, when you met Mr Kabila in Kinshasa, how did he look? Did he look scared, did he look like a man very conscious of his security?
Tido Mhando: I met him three times on this trip that I went on 7th, 8th, and 10th of December. And, he looks like somebody who is comfortable with himself. He was pretending to be in control of almost everything. But if you look at him closely, you would easily see that he was really afraid of a lot of other things.
Ben Dotse Malo: Talking about being afraid, his bodyguards would have surrounded him when you met him in his residence. Was he, was the rapport between him and his security forces…
Tido Mhando: What was happening is that, as I said, I met him three times, and in all these three occasions, I went to different places and all these were army barracks. Now, of course there is tight security from the gate getting down to meeting him. But after meeting the first group of normal soldiers who are guarding the guards, then you went in, you go in, whereby you would see a group of now whom you could say they were presidential guards. And these young men, seem to be very comfortable with themselves, happily dressed, well dressed, and I, well, I assumed they were well paid as well. And then, after meeting this group, is when you get in now whereby in most occasions, Kabila was all alone by himself.
Ben Dotse Malo: Tido, thanks for giving us that insight, the big question for everybody now is what does all this mean for the Congo. Antoine Lokongo, briefly from you, what does the situation in your country mean for people there now?
Antoine Lokongo: Personally, it is very, very sad, if it would be confirmed that President Kabila is dead, because this is a man who had the interests, or who has the interests of the Congolese people at heart. And because he refused to play the same games, the same games that Mobutu played for three decades as you have said earlier on, the people who helped him overthrow the worst dictatorship in Africa turned against him, I mean here Rwanda, Uganda, and Burundi to a certain extent, and America and all other major powers in Europe. So, for the people of Congo, this would be a great, a great loss.
Ben Dotse Malo: Ok, if I can now turn to Mr George Block of the International Crisis Group. Mr Block, you have been following and writing about development in the Congo for some time now. What do you think developments in the Congo mean for the Congo and the Congolese people?
George Block: Well, I don’t think Kabila was perhaps the best ruler of the Congo. I agree with your, the other person there who said that his death is probably bad for the peace process, and the reason for this is the regime that follows him is liable to be even less independent than he was to the external countries involved in the war, most notably Angola. And this is bad for Congolese because it prevents them from deciding their own political future.
Ben Dotse Malo: Obviously, what we are hearing is, that the death of Mr Kabila has not been confirmed. But we will examine the issues all the same. In your view, looking at the whole Great Lakes Region, looking at Uganda, Rwanda and the rebels in the east of the Democratic Republic of Congo, what is going to happen now?
George Block: Well, I mean it is hard to say. The thing about this event whatever it was is that everybody seems so much surprised by it. Our sources tell me that both the Rwandans and the Ugandans have been playing rather coy, I saying that they hope that whoever going to follow Kabila is going to be more willing to speak with them, but nevertheless, they are prepared to continue with military actions if that was the course that the government in Kinshasa wanted. But, I think, they don’t really know necessarily, which direction the events are going to go from here.
Ben Dotse Malo: Do you think Uganda and Rwanda who haven’t been fighting Kabila for so many months now, will now realise that there a crisis in Kinshasa and go for the kill and try to take over the whole country now?
George Block: Again, a possibility, but I don’t think so. The military balance is not in their favour to take over the whole country. They might be tempted to make smaller advances in their own regions but the grip of Angolan military forces over Kinshasa would probably prevent any advance towards the capital. More likely would be an attempt to broker a deal between these eastern countries and Angola to decide who will actually follow Kabila. However, I don’t think that is a very likely scenario.
Ben Dotse Malo: What about the countries: Namibia, Angola and Zimbabwe, countries supporting Mr Kabila. What would be their position now?
George Block: Namibia is not really particularly big player in the Congo, but certainly Angola and Zimbabwe have heavily invested in the country and in Kabila, and they are not going to want to see their investments go to waste. They may very well decide that they may do want to continue with conventional war, the Zimbabweans in particular, it has been hurting them for some time.
Ben Dotse Malo: Some people are speculating that the Angolans probably gave the green light for whatever is happening now. How likely is that?
George Block: If the story of the body guard is correct, it could just be a sort of realm of event that would surprise me. It certainly seems that if this was a deliberate putsch attempt, it was somehow bungled. I mean, the regime in Kinshasa has not done a rapid transition now. They seem to be trying to buy time. And, I don’t necessarily think that the Angolans were behind a deliberate putsch at the moment. However, the Angolans are certainly involved in the efforts to bring stability back to the capital city, and they would be involved in deciding whoever is going to be the regime that follows Kabila.
Ben Dotse Malo: Joseph Winter, in the Zimbabwean capital Harare, indeed Zimbabwe has spent a lot of money and sent many men into battle in the Congo, how are they viewing things from there, what impact is the situation having on Zimbambwe?
Joseph Winter: Well, opinion here is still as it always has been very much divided. People around the government, the ministers are, will always be disappointed by this news. I hear President Mugabe is saying that the allies, meaning Zimbabwe, Namibia, and Angola will soon meet to decide what action to take. But as Mr Block was just saying there, Zimbabwe has invested a lot of money on things like exploiting diamond mines, cheap electricity, even air Zimbabwe has taken over some of the lucrative routes that Air Congo used to have. So, if Zimbabwe is to pull out, then presumably they would loose all that investment and would not be in the interest of the government. On the other hand, all the people, the opposition, the rest of the population who have been heavily critical of the decision by Zimbabwe to get involved in Congo, would be rather happy and they are saying: this is our opportunity to pull our troops out! Eh which will go someway to alleviating some of the economic problems that the country is facing at the moment. So, as always, the question is very divisive here and down the political divide.
Ben Dotse Malo: You are listening to Talk About Africa from the BBC, with me Ben Dotse Malo. And my guests are, Arnauld Zajtman, the BBC Reporter in Kinshasa, Antoine Lokongo, a Congolese journalist who is based here in the United Kingdom, George Block, an international expert on Congolese affairs, and our Swahili Service Editor, Tido Mhando. If we could move as to whom is filling the power vacuum in Kinshasa right now. Arnauld Zajtman, who is actually in charge of the Congo now?
Arnauld Zajtman: The man in charge in Kinshasa now is President Laurent Kabila’s son, Joseph Kabila. He is in charge of both of the government and the army.
Ben Dotse Malo: But we have heard reports that even he, Kabila’s son was killed in the event of yesterday?
Arnauld Zajtman: Yeah! We had such reports in the beginning, right after the event took place. We were told that he was injured and that he was the one being transferred to the hospital, but this seems to be completely wrong. We have seen Joseph Kabila on National television on Wednesday during the conference after which the communiqué was read on TV.
Ben Dotse Malo: Apart from Mr Kabila’s son, who are the other three top people in the Kabila government who can assume power or rule the country now?
Arnauld Zajtman: The real people in power are the Angolans according to different sources in Kinshasa. Now, the Congolese people who are emerging from that crisis are Kabila’s son, are Eddy Kapend, Kabila’s aide de camp, he is very educated man, he is not from a military background as such, joined military activities recently; and then the other man is according to some diplomatic sources, General Yav, who is one of the generals. And then apparently, most of them, top people are originating from the Katanga.
Ben Dotse Malo: Could you help us put all this into context, the Angolan aspect because the Angolans seems to be receiving a lot of mention as the key people here, who are holding unto power now. How big is their influence?
Arnauld Zajtman: Kabila has kept on power due to the backing of his allies, and among these allies, there is Zimbabwe, there is also Angola, and Angola is strong, is the key ally of President Kabila and this is the only country that has vital interests in the Congo, namely the UNITA which in the past was supported by autorities close to ex-ruler Mobutu Sese Seko.
Ben Dotse Malo: If I could turn to you Mr George Block, in our Nairobi studio.Whoever takes over and assumes power in the Congo now, whether it is Mr Kabila’s son Joseph, how do you see them vis-à-vis the rebels who are fighting to topple the government in Kinshasa?
George Block: I don’t really see that there would be that much of a difference. Kabila’s most powerful political rhetoric was always nationalist and about resistance against foreign invaders. Whoever follows him in power in Kinshasa is bound to use the same language, I mean after all the country is invaded. So, this, the rebels forces in the east are not autonomous players, they belong almost entirely to the Ugandan and Rwandan backers. So, I don’t see that this event is somehow going to bring reconciliation.
Ben Dotse Malo: Antoine Lokongo, who do you see think would be the best person in the Congo now working towards peace?
Antoine Lokongo: First of all, let me tell you that, because I have heard that from some interventions that when Kabila dies then the level of nationalism will be watered down. Not at all. The people of Congo have been humiliated by their neighbours in the east, and that humiliation does not take another colour with Kabila’s death.
Ben Dotse Malo: Antoine, even though you are talking about humiliation, the immediate task, one would assume, for you as a Congolese and for the Congolese people, is who is feeling the power vacuum in your country. First of all before you think of your enemies in the east.
Antoine Lokongo: Yeah! That is true! I mean, there are responsible people now in Kinshasa, you mentioned Colonel Eddy Kapend [I did not know yet that the villain was in the coup with General Yav], you mentioned Joseph Kabila, you mentioned Gaetan Kakudji, who is the actual minister of interior who has now kept the situation under control, and like you said, the situation is under control, if it is under control, that means they are very responsible people; and they will keep the Kabila legacy going.
Ben Dotse Malo: So, regardless of whether Mr Kabila is dead or alive, Lokongo, what do you think your people, the Congolese people are going to be doing now.
Antoine Lokongo: The Congolese people have now to remain united and keep on the fight until they put this humiliation to an end. That does not change whether Kabila is alive or dead.
Ben Dotse Malo: OK, Joseph Winter in Harare, we have heard about the power of the Angolans in Kinshasa. The Zimbabweans have a key role to play. But still how unpopular is the Zimbabwean involvement in the Congo?
Joseph Winter: It is extremely unpopular. People are saying, look, the country is going through an economic crisis and yet here we are spending however much money that estimates have been all over the place. But everyone agrees that it is a very large amount of money. Even the finance minister recently said that Zimbabwe cannot afford to continue its involvement in the Congo. It taking up foreign currency which is very scarce here. There are reports that despite the fuel shortage we had, some of the fuel has been fast trucked to the Congo for military needs , the needs of the army in Congo, whereas people, ordinary civilians in Zimbabwe have not had fuel; although of course some people do support President Mugabe’s argument that Congo was invaded, we as a fellow African nation have to protect our neighbour against a foreign invasion. I remember once, the foreign minister said to me it was the same as Britain getting involved in the World War II by protecting Poland against Germany. So, there that kind of arguments but the general mood is against the involvement in Congo.
Ben Dotse Malo: And I understand the wives of soldiers who lost their lives are people who have been quite opposed to the continued involvement in the Congo anyway.
Joseph Winter: Yeah! Certainly! People who have lost loved ones aren’t happy at all and they say that it is along way away and there are also these reports that people just getting gory remains of their husbands, a head, or a body without a head, or a hand, very horrible details which have come out and which have further turned the public mood against the public mood against the involvement in the Congo.
Ben Dotse Malo: If I can turn to Mr George Block. Mr Block, one aspect of everything concerned in the Congo is the United Nations expected involvement there. How do you see the UN getting involved in the Congo over the next few weeks?
George Block: Well, it is true that the possible death of Kabila might open the way for an increased involvement of the UN in the Congo. However, the UN has always been very, very reluctant to involve itself in the Congo. It sort of always saw it as a problem was not likely to be solved, unless they did not want another African failure on their hands. Personally, I think, this is a bad thing, because the history since the Lusaka cease-fire agreement in the July 1999, demonstrated that the countries that actually are involved in the war cannot actually solve the problem themselves. And so, a much strong level of international involvement is needed. I don’t thin that the Un is goignto provide this unless we see some real energy.
Ben Dotse Malo: Antoine Lokongo, will your people the Congolese welcome the UN’s direct involvement at this stage?
Antoine Lokongo: How many resolutions have been voted by the UN and nothing has been acted upon? So, to think that the UN will be the solution in the Congo without the Congolese themselves uniting to put an end to this problem is really false.
Ben Dotse Malo: If we can quickly return to our man in Kinshasa. Arnaud, I know it is a difficult and fluid situation developing in the Congo, can you tell us what can we expect over the next 24 hours?
Arnauld Zajtman: I think that somehow the government will have to come with an official statement of Kabila’s death. From that point we will what people’s reaction will be. Joseph Kabila is not very much liked by the people here in Kinshasa. He has been accused of involvement in different economic crimes, of embezzling money, so, it is unlikely that people will be really happy with Joseph Kabila as their new leader.
Ben Dotse Malo: Ok, we leave it like that. Developments in the Democratic Republic of Congo, I want to say a big thank you to all my guests, Arnaud Zajtman in Kinshasa, Antoine Lokongo who is based here in the United Kingdom, he is a Congolese journalist, Geroge Block of the International Crisis Group, and my own colleague Swahili Service Editor Tido Mhando, a big thank you to all of you, not forgetting Joseph Winter in Harare. My name is Ben Dotse Malo. You have been listening to Talk About Africa.
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