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EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW: Interviewed by the BBC, Jean Pierre Bemba was categoric: “My business and my father’s business had nothing to do with tribal, regional or political links with Mobutu”
By Antoine Roger Lokongo, 6.05.2005
Congolese Vice-President Jean Pierre Bemba was in London recently. He gave an interview to “Hard Talk”, a BBC programme presented by Zainab Badawi, and which was watched by many Congolese living in the United Kingdom. Their initial reaction? Well, they all unanimously said that by denying any political, tribal or regional link with Mobutu, which facilitated the making of the Bembas’fabulous wealth through looting Congo’s natural and mineral resources (diamond, coltan, gold, timber), given the fact that they all come from Equateur province, the Vice-President in charge of economy and finance (ecofin) was simply spitting on the memory of Marshall Mobutu Sese Seko.
Mr Bemba said: “It is not true. You should go and investigate more. My father started his business in 1958. He was producing coffee. He was 20-year-old. He was the first exporter of coffee in Congo. He has built his business because of his own work. It is true that I came from an important and wealthy family. Myself, after studying in Belgium, I started my business, my own business, nothing to do with Mobutu. My father has never been in finance. He was called [by Laurent Kabila], for eight months, I think because of his experience in economy. I don’t believe that there should a problem to call businessmen in government if they understand more economy than different people.”
However, through the reactions that we got from Congolese living in London, one can see that Congolese have not forgotten for instance how Scibe-Zaïre, Bemba father’s own airline company, completely swallowed Air-Zaïre, as the national airline was called then, to refer but to this one case.
MLC has no reserve troops on stand by or ready to mobilise some more just in case, despite a government of national unity.
Mr Bemba issued another denial regarding the 10,000 troops or more so, and ready to mobilise some more he has on stand by just in case… despite a government of national unity.
“Not at all! Where does that information come from? It really impossible today saying that one single leader or former leader from the rebellion has control over troops. All troops are united and are now going in retraining in different bases, all those soldiers. All the control of all the soldiers are under the control of the General headquarters. Absolutely. No single man can say that he still has control over troops. It is impossible to have it. You cannot hide them. How can even the chief of staff of this army accept that situation? How can even the President of this country accept such a situation? It would be a danger for the country if anybody gets even 1,000 under his control. For doing what? For what purpose? The army today is united for the last 20 months, with one general headquarters, one chief of staff, and they are getting their instructions from the chief of staff of the army.
[Moreover], it is not easy to unite more than eight different rebel groups within 20 months. That is what we are doing. Giving the same training. They were all inside the country which 245,000 square kilometres, gather them, give them the same training, the same equipment, the same logistics, Ok. And so, with the support that we have from the international community, South Africa, Belgium, I can say that within two years, everything is clear, you get a new army, an army with its own philosophy, its own spirit.”
But Conglese in London reckoned that such a task would be facilitated if all the warlords bring back all the money they looted during the five-year war and accumulated in foreign banks, and put it back into the treasury in Kinshasa.
Adressing the fundamental question of “who bears the responsibility of a genocide of more than 5 million Congolese during the war of aggression, of the death of 1,000 Congolese a day at the moment and the highest child mortality rate never recorded ever in the history of a people as it is the case in Congo today, Mr Bemba, without mentioning Museveni or Kagame or without referring at all, to the anglo-américan-rwandan-ugandan-burundian coalition which attacked Congo, placed the responsibility squarely on the shoulders of Congo’s past leaders, namely, Patrice Lumumba, Joseph Kasa-Vubu, Joseph Désiré Mobutu, Laurent Désiré Kabila, as well as the Hema-Lendu conflict in Ituri.
He said: “I think that in Congo we have had this five year war, conflict, because of [the lack of] legitimacy, because of the conflict in the power in Congo, regimes in Congo, exclusion in Congo. But I think now, what is so worrying us in the government is the question of Ituri where people are dying, the conflict between Hema and Lendu. The government is doing its best with the UN, as you know, the United Nations Mission in Congo to put peace and security in that region. But this problem of Hema and Lendu came from a long time, from 1959, just before the independence of our country. I would not say that people are responsible but on the fact of Hema-Lendu fighting in this region just because of hatred among themsleves, now presently is causing problems to our government and we are very worried about this one as well.”
Put under pressure, not to evade the question, he explained further: “You see that after the independence of Congo, there have always been irresponsible regimes. We did not have rights and real policies on how to educate children, how to protect people in Congo, how to give health to the people of Congo. So, I believe that if we have to talk about responsibility, I would say that all the different heads of state, governments coming after the independence [are responsible for the tragedy in Congo].
When Mobutu was in charge , these problems happened also. From 1997, there were these five years of war because of the conflict, the illegitimacy of the power coming after with Laurent Désiré Kabila. I think, for the last 20 months we have succeeded to unite the country now. I would say in terms of responsibility, the different governments in charge of Congo bear part of the responsibility.”
Here Congolese in London reckoned that it is the people of Congo themselves who have to draw the conclusions that need to be drawn on the situation of human rights and the governance of chunks of territories Bemba’s MLC, RCD-Goma rebel movements and all others during the five-year war and during the current transition.
Our colleague Zainab Badawi immediately brought back Mr Bemba to the present time, because, as she put it, the looting, the raping (MSF currently giving treatment to two and half million raped women, aged between 4 and 80 in one hosiptal in Bunia alone), and the killing, the massacres are still going on, referring to the latest UN report, which clearly pointed fingers not only to the Hema-Lendu conflict but also to members of the national army and to all former congolese militia, namely MLC, RCD-Goma and many others, adding that in January 2003, the MLC was particularly accused of summary and arbitrary executions, of rape and cannibalisme by the UN, facts that have been confirmed by more than 350 eye witnesses.
This is what Mr Bemba had to say: “I think that in terms of responsibility, when you have a militia when you have an army and you are only responsible for that one, in case you are aware, or you give instructions, or you knew and you did not sanction those who commit crime, rape. In our case, in my case, when I am informed about any violation, I am the one to ask to be sanctioned immediately by a military court if it is a soldier, or by the court if he is a civilian.
I don’t deny that no abuses have been committed by my men. I don’t say that my generals have a clean hand. I tell you that when and where any abuses were committed, I was the first one to arrest the soldiers and the first one to send them to court. We have had 183 soldiers arrested and sentenced for abuses. And all these reports are known. We even gave it to the UN.
So, I am not saying that my generals and my foot soldiers have a clean hand. 183 were arrested during the five-year war. But, look what is happening in Ivory Coast, look what is happening in Irak, can you really say that the head of the state, of governments are responsible for nonsense committed by the soldiers on the grounds? Our responsibility is to punish them. And that is what I did, and I am doing it.”
As far as the January 2003 accusations by the UN against the MLC particularly (MLC was accused of summary and arbitrary executions, of rape and cannibalisme by the UN, facts that have been confirmed by more than 350 eye witnesses), Mr Bemba defended himself as follow:
“You know that a trial was put in place. Even the international press was there, and 23 soldiers, at that period were in court, military court, and today they are still in jail.”
So how long were the sentences that he as the commander-in-chief of the military court and now a vice-president gave them? And especially, human rights organisations such as Human Rights Watch simply said that the trial of Mr Bemba’s 20 officers held in Gbadolite was simply a “sham”, that there were no proper investigation, no proper witnesses?
Answer: “It is not me, I am not the judge. Responsibility, political responsibility lies with me. But the court was independent and the decision was taken by the court. It is I think a pity, because I am the one who invited Human Rights Watch. I am the one who wrote to them, I am the one who called those humanitarian organisations to come. They never came. Never. I still have the letter I wrote to them, in Washington, given to their office. When they came to this trial, investigations were made. The UN is witness to those investigations and they were there during the trial. So!
I said put 183 men on trial during the last five years for rape, killing…But you know that rape is not just the responsibility of Congolese soldiers. You know recently, even UN troops have been involved in acts of rape.
There should not be confusion. I am responsible for what my soldiers did, and as a political leader, they have been on trial. I have never excused any single abuse or rape on anybody. I was not in charge of Bunia, sothe responsibility of what happened in Bunia lies with whoever was in charge of Bunia."
Ms Zainab wanted to know whether Mr Bemba was worried now that the international criminal court has started proceedings, looking at abuses that have taken place in the DRC, the chief prosecutor Louis Moreno Ocampo has said that he wants to prosecute the commanders, not the foot soldiers? It remains to see if Mr Bemba will get away with it.
“How can I be worried because the law is very clear about this. I think that I can just be responsible in case that I covered or I sent those people to commit abuses. Who can send someone to abuse women. When we thought, we thought for the liberation, to liberate Congo. Not to rape women. Not to abuse human beings. I don’t accept responsibility because, what I say, my responsibility will be out of them when I have arrested those soldiers. That is what I did. Witnesses are there, the trial was there. I orgainsed trial, but I was not the one to judge. Investigations were made during two weeks in the area where crime was committed. The report is there. Given to UN. International press were called and they were there. Three organs of press were there, international. So, I did what I was supposed to do.
If there are people responsible for those crimes, it should be a personal responsibility. The personal responsibility of the leaders is to make sure that when they are informed of any abuse, rape, killing, they use their power to arrest and put those criminal in front of the court. That is the only thing that we can do. Do you believe that a leader can in his office, take the phone or the radio and say: OK, go and rape? I don’t believe that that can happen. You should read the international law. Do you mean that many heads of state in this world, sending their soldiers, and you know there are many soldiers in Africa, from many other countries, in Asia, do you mean that those heads of state, those political leaders are responsible? Even here, in the UK, what is happening for example in Irak, the ministers, or the prime minister have a responsibility? I don’t think so! The responsibility lies with those soldiers, those who committed crimes, those who need to be sentenced, those who need to be arrested,” explained Mr Bemba.
So why has Mr Bemba a private helicopter, a Thec-made LF10 in his house if he was not concerned and so probably he wants to get a quick get away?
“Absolutely not! Do you mean that President Bush, the helicopter that he has in the White House is for him to get away? Absolutely not. It is just a mode of transport, quick mode of transport when I need to go from one side to the other side in quicker way. Why should I get a quicker get away? It is my country. I have some responsibility in this government, so there is no reason to do so. That is a rumour,” he said.
So, how does Mr Bemba explains the fact that he lives in opulence, in comfort and luxury while he fellow Congolese around are dying like flies to the tune of 1,000 a day?
“I think that the reason why we thought was just to give better lives to the Congolese people. That is one thing. And I don’t believe that because you live in a better way that you think about those who don’t live in a better condition. The reason why we are in the government today, we are doing politics, at the one reason in my sense, is to make everything and to put any politics to make people in Congo have a better life. That is the reason why we are doing politics. My private jet I bought it in 1994. Can you tell me how many people are there really who are ready to leave their luxury to go to the bush and to fight during five years in order to fight for fundamental change in Congo, who take risks and fight for five years for one’s country? I don’t think so. That means what? Let me also say that the Equateur Province is one of the poorest provinces in Congo, because timber, until you export it, you transform it, you process it, it has no value.”
Did UN witnesses who accused Mr Bemba of using child soldiers see some child soldiers for the MLC ready to board a plane at Gbadolite airport ?
Answer: “You know, Gbadolite was first of all the headquarters. Those children were the one taken in the front line of Kabila soldiers that we sent back to their headquarters. I am the one who wrote to Unicef-Uganda, saying: “please come and take these children to send them back to their families. All the reports are there, all the letters are there. Unicef in Uganda, ask them, in their office.”
Yet the London-based Channel4 did a documentary on Bemba’s rebel movement and you could see child soldiers singing for Bemba.
Elections are due at the end of June, they could be postponed. What is Mr Bemba’s position on that since he wanted them to take place at the end of June but it seems now he has changed his mind.
“I think that it important that elections should take place inside the time that we are doing. But it also important that those elections should be credible elections. Credible elections means fair, transparent, democratic, meaning that we have to start, we have to start probably in May. We are in akind of process now to see what kind of equipment that we are going to use for the census. Census should start in May. If the census takes three or four months, the campaign will start in September, October, November, we hope, we believe that before the end of this year, we should have elections. That is what we expect,” said Mr Bemba.
And if Mr Bemba does not do well in the forthcoming elections, what will he do? Will he accept defeat? Just retreat to his own private residence?
Mr Bemba, in his reply said that “before doing politics he was doing other things, adding that, if he lost, his political party will carry on with the struggle.
“I believe that my political party is a national party today, represented in the whole Congo, and if me personally, I am not fighting for power personally, but I believe that my political party will have something,and we have some support of the people of Congo, and play a role in the new assembly, the new senate, and we see probably the new government coming, because it should be a government of national union.
Even if he does not win the elections, Mr Bemba who has already made his gold after this war of looting, thinks that every government in the DRC should sign the “Extractive Industry Transparency Initiative, to ensure that resources are not plundered.
“It is absolutely necessary. We have no choice. We need to go through that process of transparency on the extractive industry. When I go back to Congo, I will organise a big forum with extractive companies, with the NGOs and the civil society, to inform them about that initiative, and put in place some mechanisms to control the execution of this initiative.”
And finally Mr Bemba was asked: “How do you feel about the prospect of your country being described by the international community and by the Red Cross as the “worst disaster since World War II”, a thousand people dying a day. When is the dying going to stop?
He replied: “This dying must stop even today, even now, immediately. And I tell you that you cannot imagine that we are pleased to hear every day that people are dying. We are doing everything to stop it, to stop it, to stop it immediately. We are putting all the little means that we have to go and secure the people of Congo. Just now, we are mobilising two brigades, new 5,000 men in Ituri, to go and secure the people there, with the support of the United Nations, the international community. So, we are not going to stop from mobilising all our resources, all our men, to go and secure the people and to stop the killing.”
Let us wait and see.
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