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Conflict in the Congo:
An Interview with President Laurent Kabila
by Elombe Brath and Samori Marksman
In early May 1997, when it became apparent to western observers that
the broad coalition of rebel forces in Zaire (now the Democratic
Republic of Congo) headed by veteran freedom fighter, Laurent Kabila,
would eventually topple the Mobutu kleptocracy and establish "a popular
government, linking all sectors of our society," the Financial Times,
the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, and others in the
corporate media slowly began to criticize the "excesses" of the
CIA-installed Mobutu regime, in power since 1965. But at the same time
they began a relentless campaign against Kabila and the rebel coalition.
The Wall Street Journal spoke of Kabila as an "ideological throwback"
to the politics of the 1960s. It decried his relationship with Che
Guevara, who had gone to the Congo in the early l960s to work with a
progressive coalition (including Kabila) to support the Patrice Lumumba
forces and to oust another CIA-installed regime, which had been
installed in the diamond-rich region of Katanga. The Journal warned
that "western interests" would now be in jeopardy under Kabila.
For thirteen months, Kabila sought to consolidate a broad coalition to
democratize and develop the Congo. But by August 1998, two neighboring
states, Rwanda and Uganda, aligned with ethnic forces inside the Congo,
invaded several towns and cities. Both invading countries charged
Kabila with "corruption" and human rights violations, and with being
"undemocratic." Both Rwanda and Uganda are governed by de facto
military regimes. Both governments are hosts to U.S. military training
facilities and U.S. military personnel.
The Congo has been regarded by leading scientists and economists as one
of the most mineral-rich countries in the world. It contains roughly 70
percent of the world's cobalt. More than half of the U.S. military's
cobalt comes from the Congo. It is the second largest producer of
diamonds in the world and is known for large deposits of gold,
manganese, and copper. The Congo's peculiar type of high-grade uranium
was used by the U.S. to make the atom bombs that were dropped on Japan
in WWII. And the U.S. dominates mining in that area even today.
The current conflict in the Congo directly involves, on one side: the
governments of Rwanda and Uganda; former Mobutu soldiers; a small
number of Congolese dissidents, including western inspired
intellectuals; members of two ethnic groups that are indigenous to
Rwanda; and UNITA, a CIA-created contra organization, set up in 1964 to
work with the CIA and the then South African apartheid regime to
overthrow the government of Angola. And on the other side: the
government of the Democratic Republic of Congo; and the governments of
Zimbabwe, Namibia, Chad, and Angola.
While much diplomatic and other forms of support have come to Kabila's
government from Cuba, Libya, Nigeria, and many other countries, it
remains unclear from where Rwanda and Uganda, two tiny and extremely
poor countries, are receiving the massive military resources they are
consuming.
The following interview was conducted with President Laurent Kabila in
November 1998 by Elombe Brath, veteran activist and radio producer on
African issues, and Samori Marksman, director of programming at WBAI,
Pacifica Radio in New York City.
Elombe Brath: Mr. President, we want you to be able
to talk directly to the people here, to tell them of the situation in
the Congo as it is today.
President Laurent Kabila: The situation in Congo is
a war situation. The Congo has been aggressed in the north by Uganda
and Rwanda as well as Burundi. As of October 30, there were 15,000
Ugandan and 19,000 Rwandan troops on Congo soil. They are disrupting
our democratization process. They are killing and looting everywhere,
particularly in the mining areas such as Kisangani and Kivu. All
production is at a standstill.
The people of Congo, who are the victims, are mobilizing against this
open aggression. The aggressors have benefited by the complicity of big
powers who have decided not to tell them to pull out from the Congo so
that we could begin again the reconstruction of that area, so that
peace could be brought back to the area of the Great Lakes region.
Samori Marksman: President Kabila, could you discuss
the nature of the forces from outside the Congo, besides Rwanda and
Uganda, which are directly involved in the Congo itself?
Kabila: When Uganda and Rwanda started the invasion,
no rebellion existed inside the Congo. The real position here is that
after the 2nd of August attempted coup in Kinshasa was defeated, they
came up with the story of a revolt. Three weeks after they realized
that they were not going to defeat the popular government in Kinshasa,
they came up with this story of rebels. Of course, they have got
accomplices from the Congo itself. But in the course of the conflict we
saw the so-called rebels getting people from European cities; from the
former Mobutu army. They also got refugees from Tanzania, Uganda, and
elsewhere. So these critics, who call themselves "democratic forces,"
are supported by Uganda and Rwanda. They wanted to impose on the Congo
a group of leaders which was not elected by the people. Uganda and
Rwanda leadership, especially Mr. Museveni and Mr. Kagame, think that
the Congo is not mature enough to be the master of its own destiny and
that the Congolese should be given to the puppets of those two
countries. This is a key question. They want the government of the
Democratic Republic of Congo to accept and negotiate with their puppets
and discuss internal matters on behalf of these invaders.
The forces we requested have come in to stop
aggression against the Democratic Republic of Congo, these are the
legitimate governments of these countries (Angola, Zimbabwe, Namibia,
etc.). They are not concerned about pulling out, because they were
called in to stop aggression. We will ask our friends and our allies to
leave the country when the situation in the Congo has been normalized.
But this cannot be taken as one of the conditions for peace, as has
been called for by the European governments.
Our allies and friends are here to assist and
preserve the sovereignty and independence of the Congo. They should not
be asked to go at the same time as the aggressors, who do not have the
right to be here in the Congo in the first place, stay. This is the
situation.
Brath: The western press has been trying to link the
Army of the Democratic Republic of Congo with the Interahambe [the
militias of Rwandan origins that participated in the genocide against
fellow Rwandans in Rwanda]. Those who have now invaded the Congo said
that they came into the country to try to cleanse that area of armed
groups. I recall that when I was in the Congo in 1997, we noticed that
you had worked to integrate the Banyamulenge and even Rwandans into the
government, including the then Foreign Minister Kahara. Please explain
the situation with the Interahambe, and also, why you felt that the
people whom you had helped turned against you.
Kabila: The first point is the Interahambe.
Additionally, a huge percentage of the population fled from Rwanda into
the Congo.
One of the things that was agreed between me and
Kagame just before the overthrow of Mobutu was that the revolutionary
people of the Congo would split up and expel from power the Mobutu
regime and also deny any base of activities by which the Interahambe
might attack Rwanda. On the other hand, Rwanda had agreed to give free
passage to the Congolese Liberation Movement for our activities in our
own country to overthrow the Mobutu regime. That is what we did.
So it was an interesting agreement on both sides to
keep alive the Kigali regime of Kagame. And we did benefit from the
free passage. We were working together. We were solving this problem
called Banyamulenge, that is, the Tutsi immigrants that were living in
the same part of Zaire (now Congo), especially in Kivu in the south and
in the north. We had integrated those young men, who had been
discriminated against before we came into power. And after we took
power, we even gave to some of them key positions in the government for
the first time in the history of this country. That Kahara is a
traitor, absolutely. He was a member of my cabinet, as well as many
other Tutsis, and even some Rwandans were officers of our Army,
controlling the general staff of the Army, all the brigades and the
area where Interahambe and the former Rwandan Army was most active.
So we did what we had agreed with those gentlemen
leaders from Rwanda and Uganda. And what they have since come up with
is that the leaders of Rwanda, and especially Uganda, keep sending
signals as if the Congo is a small colony, they feel that they have to
do what it is necessary for my country. We started disagreeing when
they killed thousands of Hutus in the western part of our country, in
the equatorial region.
That was the certain point of disagreement between
us, because we said we could not continue supporting the massacre of
the Hutu people on our own soil, and we decided Rwanda would have to
pull out. That is what we did. They are not satisfied to wait, and then
the coup attempt came in August 1998 followed by the invasion, which is
still going on now.
Marksman: This chronology is very important. When
did the massacre of the Hutus occur, how close was it to the attempted
coup of August?
Kabila: The massacre of Hutus occurred in 1997 in
the Kisangani area, and the areas of what we call here the equatorial
region. This was carried out by Rwandan troops based there because it
was the area we had given them as a military area.
Several months after they carried out the massacre,
the traditional Congolese chief, who witnessed it, and who even
participated in transporting bodies, putting the bodies into sacks,
came to my office and informed me. That was in July 1998. I was
apprised of what they had done without the knowledge of the Congolese
government. And we were still on friendly terms at that time. So I did
protest it. And, I said it's not possible, we can't accept that kind of
thing on our soil. Many of the traditional chiefs came into the
delegation here bringing in more proof. We sent people from my office
of the Justice Minister; the Interior Minister was sent to the site of
the massacre, and proof was there. We expressed our dislike for this
kind of tradition of violence and blood. We see that all the time and
we put a stop right here in the Congo. So that this was the beginning
of the accusation by Kagame and Museveni of Kabila being a dictator and
that Kabila did not like Tutsis. Those are false accusations.
Those people were pulled out on the 28th of July,
the coup started on the 2nd of August of this year. So it was due to
the situation that they feared, that they were no longer controlling
our government. And so that's why they resorted to that coup.
Brath: There's another critical point, President
Kabila, in the chronology. Many Latin American papers reported that you
went to Cuba on July 23rd. And, it was after you returned to the Congo
that you told James Kabally that you wanted him to leave, but you told
the rest of the Rwandan troops that you wanted them to go back to their
country. You had already started to talk to Zimbabwe about retraining
the Congolese Army. And many of us here who study the way the U.S.
works, because we're well aware of the connection between both Rwanda
and Uganda with the United States military forces, we feel that it was
because they saw you as coming together with Fidel Castro and Cuba for
support, that they were given the signal to move against you. Do you
agree with this assessment?
Kabila: Yes, this is true. It is admitted also by
some that this is one of the reasons. I know that when I was in Cuba, I
was told of the tremendous tension inside the Congolese Army during my
absence. They called me at my office, saying that something was very
wrong. That's why I came back; it was to take control of the situation.
Had we not arrived on time, the situation would have been very
complicated on the 2nd, when the coup d'etat was attempted. We sent our
ministers and security officers to Kagame to tell them that everybody
had to go. And that we must have an open agreement. We all hoped that
the new program would show them what they should and should not do.
They had been doing everything which the Congolese could judge wrong:
killing people to steal cars; killing people just to occupy villas;
killing people just to steal from the bank and other institutions;
killing and raping women.
So many things were very wrong, and the population
was completely opposed to the presence of Tutsis because of their
behavior. And I could not continue to put my own people under the
pressure of the occupation of so-called friends. I decided they had to
go. That's what we did. And, Kagame himself said that yes, he accepts
that those people should go back home. Many of the Tutsis whom we even
included in our government were only interested in seeking control over
the Congo. As you know, this Congo has over 50 million people, and the
Tutsis are less than 200,000 -less than 200,000-and they're mostly
illegal. So, they wanted to control the entire government despite what
they have been getting from us. We are very, very important compared to
their own population. So I think all those factors came together when
the Rwandans and the Ugandans claimed that they're losing control of
the Congo. Absolutely, we don't understand why the United States of
America was still supporting those gentlemen, training the military;
and even now the U.S. is still in Uganda and Rwanda. You are the ones
who know. You are policing Africa-by you, I mean the policies of your
government, not you as individuals.
Those three countries, Rwanda, Uganda, and Burundi,
are not democratic ones. They are minority rulers, repressing the
majority of their countries. They are seeking to get rid of every Hutu.
This is wrong.
Brath: President Kabila, one thing that is of great
interest is your government's push for elections in your country. It is
not getting much attention here, even when people like Nelson Mandela
said you were doing a good job there. But Thabo M'beki, the Deputy
President of South Africa, also said that you are not quite ready for
an election-because the electoral infrastructure simply does not exist,
and that pushing ahead this early could be detrimental. How do you see
this? Why do the western media critics continue to attack you over the
holding of elections?
Kabila: The democratization program of our
government is very clear. We were organizing what we call here the
Constituent Assembly. And, then it was intended that the people from
the territory, 300 of them from all over the country would constitute
the Constituent Assembly, after being elected from the best there. And
the Constituent Assembly would have been the transition Parliament
after the election. All of our program was to satisfy the people of the
Congo. I believe that these three countries were afraid that the Congo
would really become an authentically democratic country-with a large
territory and vast resources-and would be very strong. They are
Rwandans; they're Burundians and Ugandans, which are not democratic
countries. So, this should be taken as a key point of their consensus
for the aggression against the Democratic Republic of Congo.
Those people who knew that this is what we were
doing at that time come up with the war against us. You should know
that the aggressors have prepared their propaganda for over several
months before they started war against us. You may remember that we
called a solidarity and development conference in the area. We called
many African leaders of international organizations as one of the ways
of finding a solution to the tension in the Great Lakes region. They
sabotaged this solidarity conference. The aggressors didn't want those
things to happen.
But although M'beki and Mandela made those remarks,
they were misled basically by the propaganda of Museveni about what had
been planned. And, he [Museveni] has a way of presenting himself as a
master of the region. What they say is they know what Kabila will do
and all the other leaders of the country.
Marksman: There is much discussion now about whether
or not Angola will continue to support the Democratic Republic of
Congo, whether Zimbabwe will continue to support the Congo, or whether
pressure would be brought by the U.N. or the U.S. How do you view these
questions?
Kabila: In Angola, UNITA [the CIA-backed Union for
the Total Independence of Angola] has been the factor of
destabilization of Angola and other countries in this area for a
quarter of a century. It is known worldwide that Savimbi was getting
support from the beginning until now from the United States of America,
against the will of the people of the country. It is Savimbi who was
defeated in Angola in the democratic elections in 1994. That is known.
And the results are known. They tried to destroy the
legal government elected by the people of Angola. Now UNITA is fully in
complicity with the Rwandan troops that are in northeastern Congo.
There are plenty of UNITA people in the local hotels, in the same way
as the military personnel from the United States. You go over there and
then come up to Ugamba, you will see that there are plenty of UNITA's
people in that area with their English speaking friends.
And even today in Kisangani with Ugandan troops, everything is being called by the United States.
When they say that Angola will withdraw from the
Congo, that is propaganda. I think the government of Angola is very
clear. What some of those spreading the rumors of Angola wanting to
pull out of the Congo don't know is that Angola is very well committed
to the friendship and brotherhood with the people of Congo. And they
know that the Congo is the victim of aggression. They can't pull out
under these circumstances.
Why should they do so, even with many pressures from
those big countries, especially the United States going around asking
them to pull out, instead of condemning the invasion. There are U.S.
embassies in the aggressor nations. Why doesn't the United States tell
the aggressors who have violated the Charter of the United Nations to
pull out? But the wealth that is in the Congo explains why they keep
occupying our country. They have to go.
So, Angola is resolved. And what they are saying
about Angola is that the absolute pressure is being used to force
Angola, Namibia, and Zimbabwe to pull out so that the aggressors can
get a chance to overthrow the government of the Congolese Democratic
Republic. That's what it is. Angola with the Democratic Republic of
Congo and others, they should strive together. We are on the same
frontiers and there is no way of regulating the one to fool the other.
Our friendship is very strong. And so is the imagination of our
brothers running Angola.
Brath: President Kabila what would you like to see
the people of the United States to do to help the people of the Congo?
Kabila: I think the people of Congo would like to
see the United States of America, which is a big country, a big power,
to be a country protecting a weak one against the injustice of those
who seek to present themselves as strong militarists bent on occupying
other countries.
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